The Give and Take of Church Life

Welcome back to ClearCast. I'm your host, Tim Dukeman, here with Pastor Dave, Timothy Deaton, and our producer, Martin. We're in a four-part series here. We've been talking about what it looks like to be a good church member. We started out by talking about how our culture has... an extreme difficulty with unchosen obligations, with being tied down to things, with actually investing and committing, and how that's kind of a foreign concept to us, that we want to just be able, we want to be detached enough that we feel like we can leave at any time. That that's our natural method of operation, and church is seen as just a voluntary commitment that can be ceased or or that obligation to be broken at any time, that we can have a consumeristic mindset of, what is the church providing for me? How is it enriching my life? That can be the kind of mindset we fall into. And that church needs to be more than that to us. It needs to be much more like a family. And so, in our second episode, we talked about how our wrong ideas about family have influenced us to have wrong ideas about church. And because

In many cases, we aren't sufficiently invested in our family. That leads itself to a situation where we aren't invested in the church enough because we aren't invested in the family enough, and that we don't expect enough of each other within our families, and that leads us to not expect enough of each other in our churches. And so then we went from there to, what does it look like to actually invest? What does it look like to sacrifice and recognize, the setback that happens if you were to leave a church and what it looks like to actually guard your relationship with your church and value it and be committed to it and have loyalty that's not on the table every time something comes up. And so, that's kind of where we've been going so far. And so, at this point, we want to talk about, Pastor Dave, it seems like you're arguing that there are Really isn't a good reason to ever leave the church. Is that what you're saying? I feel like we always want a list of reasons. Like, when have I done my duty? When have I checked the boxes? When can I do what I want? Like, when are my chores over? This is my kids every day. When are my chores done so I can go play? It's like, I don't know. Chores kind of grow up around us sometimes that we weren't planning on, you know? And when it comes to church, people, if you've come this far and have said, okay, I'll walk with you.

in this commitment of church, at some point you ask the question that you just asked, which is, well, but is there ever a good reason to leave a church? And frankly, I've already alluded to some good reasons that you may want to consider leaving a church. But even in saying that, I wouldn't step away from saying that it shouldn't be a grief to you. If you're leaving, I mean, is there ever a time when a family member departs it moves away and you're like, oh yeah, there's no grief here. Or if they decide to give, you're a Christian family and they decide to give themselves to sin and you're like, oh, there's no grief here. It's like, there's always grief associated with it. Even if the occasion for the grief is unrepentant sin, unbelief type things, there's still grief. And so, even if you're leaving a church, it should be a grief to you. You should miss the people. If you can pack up and leave and not have a loss,

It doesn't speak well to your commitment to the church while you were there. You weren't that helpful. I said to a man one time as he was leaving our church and moving away, I said, you know, I love you and have loved you and will continue to love you, but this is my exhortation to you, that you give yourself more to the church you're going to than you did to this church. You were too busy with work, and you didn't give yourself to this church the way that you should have. And if you're going to go and settle in somewhere else, I want you to give more of yourself and your family to the church. And he heard it and he received it. And I think he's doing it. And it wasn't a kick in the pants as he walked away. I loved him. It was hard to see him go. But I thought his work had just gotten too all-encompassing in his life. Because it wasn't always that he hadn't given to the church.

few years preceding his move, his work just kept demanding more and more and more of him. And he had work, he had family, he had church, and he says, well, I'm going to take a different job that's less demanding in that way so I can be with my family and we're going to move closer to friends so we have support. Anyway, as far as a good reason to leave a church, I think there's a better discussion to be had. And it's like, if you're going to leave, How should that be done? One of the most awkward things I've had to deal with as a pastor, I mean, frankly, it's frustrating, is people will leave the church and they won't say goodbye. And so all of a sudden, they're just not there anymore for a few weeks, and all of a sudden, the church notices, like, hey, where's Bill? It's like, well, I mean, you should call and ask. I mean, typically I say, well, you should call and ask Bill where Bill's at. Like, I don't see, and there are times where I can explain, I will answer the question and say,

This is where Bill and Susie decided to go to a different church. But typically, I want people to have to do the things that family would require of them, which is if you're going to leave, say goodbye. Don't make me do all your dirty work. The church already has to make up for the work that you were doing and the relationships that you've abandoned. Don't make us say goodbye as well. And so even as people leave, I mean, one of the first things I'd tell them in terms of how to leave is, However tense the situation may be or that sort of thing, you need to say goodbye to the people that you're close to. It's just important. And it's like, well, I don't want to do that. And I'm like, yeah, I don't. I mean, no one does. I mean, if you asked 100 people, do you like going to funerals? No one would say, yeah, I love them. They're great. But we go to them. We should go to them. Like, it's part of our work of loving the deceased is to go and to support.

their family and the grieving ones, or to grieve along with them. So, if you're going to leave the church, you should have the maturity, the faith to say goodbye to the people and see their face when you tell them you're leaving. If you're not willing to do that, then I think it's a shame. Pete Well, if you're not willing to say goodbye, that's a good indicator that you're leaving for the wrong reason. It may be, yeah. I mean, some people are just weak in the sense that they don't want to do that sort of a hard thing relationally. Like, well, I don't know what to do, and I don't want to cause them that discomfort. And it's like, what you don't realize is they're going to feel the discomfort. The question is whether or not they're going to hear it from you or me. And if I have to be the one to tell them, then not only are they going to feel the grief of your loss, but they're going to say, why didn't he talk to me? I thought we were friends.

And so, yeah, it's hard. And if you're going to make that sort of a difficult change, then you have to do the things that go along with that sort of difficult change. So that's the first thing I'd say in terms of if you're going to leave, say goodbye. Say goodbye. There was years ago, there was another pastor here at the church, and he was excelling. He was bivocational, and he was excelling at his other work. And I went to him one morning. And I said, you know, I think you're really good at what you do vocationally. I think you're better at it, at that, than you are at being a pastor. And I think that you should pursue that full time, so I don't think you should be a pastor anymore at this church. Which is very hard for me to say, because I did love him. He was a brother. I did appreciate him. I mean, everybody has their differences, but he's a brother. And I loved his family. But I went to him and I said that to him.

And it was very hard for him. He didn't see it coming. And he handled it very well. He handled it very well. He was sad. He was grieved. And I said, as we were processing through, I said, what I'd like is, what we'd like to be able to do is to actually have the church have time to process this thing. And I'd like for you, I know it's painful for your family, but if you would stay. Until we're able to put together just a few weeks. If you could stay a few weeks so that we can say goodbye. And he was willing. And it was a kindness to us. And it was very sweet. And I appreciated him for it. For doing it. Because having thought of myself in that same position, that's the last thing you'd want to do. You'd just want to go home and lick your wounds and be upset and angry and all of that. And that's not...

Whether those were temptations of his, I can only assume they were. They would have been a me. He didn't give in to them. And he stayed, and his family, and they got to say goodbye. And that was commendable, and that was sweet of him. And I'm still, to this day, thankful for him and for the way he did that. Because the goodbye was hard. But he stuck around for it. And so I think that if you're going to leave, you need to say goodbye. And depending on your relationship to the people, that may be more than just a, hey, see you later. We're going to go down the street. It may be more involved than that, which means more painful than that, but I do think you should do that. Beyond that, how else should you leave the church? I don't think you should leave rashly, and I certainly don't think you should leave without counsel. And when I say leave the church, I don't mean leave the faith. I mean, we're going to go to a different church here in town.

As hard as it is, I'm always appreciative when someone calls and tells me that, and they process why. A fair bit of time, we'll set up a meeting. I'll ask for it and say, hey, can we get together and talk? And it's not necessarily me trying to talk them out of it, depending on the circumstance. But I do think that talking to your pastor, to your elders, to the people that are close to you is really, really important. And I don't just mean talking to them like inform them of your decision, but I mean talk to them before the decision's made. Before it's set, what we're doing, go and talk to them and say, we're thinking about this. What do you think? It's a perfect time to ask for counsel and to say, would you shepherd us through this? We're thinking about taking a job in a different city. We're thinking about moving to be closer to family. Ask them the question, before the decision's made. And one of the mistakes you can make in asking the question before the decision's made is, I'm not saying ask the question before the decision's acted on. I'm saying ask the questions before your heart has started to wander. Because as soon as you start thinking about the new job, I had a friend who had a congregant who had a good job and ended up applying for a job.

2,000 miles away because he thought it would be really great to work for this Christian company. I could be helpful. And he said to himself, well, I'm not going to, I wouldn't get the job. I'm not good enough to get hired for that job. That's what he told himself. Well, then they called him back and they wanted to come out for an interview. And all of a sudden, his heart was like, we're out of here. That was his heart's desire. It was like, if they offer me the job, I'm going to take it. And it's like, okay, but why are you leaving? You have a job. It's not like you're destitute or you couldn't get another job if you needed to. It's like his heart and perhaps his family's heart had already wandered. And the reason when I was talking to my pastor friend, I said, here's the thing. His heart was already wandering because he applied for the job. He should have talked to you before he applied for the job. Once he applied for the job, that was his first step out the door.

And it didn't matter if he got that job or not because in applying for the job, he and his family decided we are willing to leave. And he didn't talk to you about that. He talked to you after he had a plane ticket to go to the interview. Well, you're really working from behind and trying to talk, have a discussion on the merits of it. Well, because you're like, well, you'll have to see if the job pays well enough and you'll have to see if there's a good church. And it's like, but the decisions, the heart decision, That was already made. And if the job falls through, if I was his pastor, if the job fell through, I would have much less confidence in that man staying at the church because he's already demonstrated that he and his family are willing to leave. And all it takes is a job application and someone saying yes, and it's like his commitment to the church is not where it should be.

Because he's doing these things without talking to the church, without considering any of the implications. This particular young man, I was thinking, I said to the pastor, I said, this is a terrible idea for him to leave. And he's like, why? They're newly married, they're having their first kid, they're wanting a little bit of distance. He had a number of reasons that the man had offered him. And I said, have you even considered what's going to happen if they move away and have a baby and need help? Like this move would entail them moving away from everybody they know to a place where they don't know anybody personally with a brand new baby. And I'm like, that is about the worst time to do that sort of thing. And it's like, even if the baby's two or three months old, like you're still in the, however much your young parents think you know about raising kids, when you have your first baby, you're going to get an education about what you don't know. Like it's way more involved.

then you're most likely than you're anticipating. And if you don't have the support network of what's familiar, even if there's some things you don't like about what's familiar, you don't know what you're giving up and what you're going to need. Because those strangers, as nice as they might be in that new church, remember the setbacks we talked about, they don't know you. And you're going to be way less likely to ask them for help than you would be to ask your mother for help. You know, can you come over? We weren't able to sleep. Like, The baby was up teething all night or whatever. My wife, she's just struggling a ton. Can you just come over and take the baby for a few hours so she can get a nap? It's a normal thing that women would ask their mom. Well, not if you live 2,000 miles away. Are you going to ask some stranger to come over and take care of your baby? I mean, I know they're Christians and all and you go to church together, but you're probably not comfortable doing that.

you should talk to your pastor before your heart starts. Like, when the discussion, when it seems like, okay, me and my spouse are just sitting here and kind of kicking around the idea, and we're not committed to it, but we are having the conversation. That is the time to go and say, hey, man, we were thinking about this. We're thinking about a career change. We're thinking about this change. What do you think? Because plenty of people leave churches that they're not. In my experience, in our church, people aren't leaving because there's a take-it-or-leave-it environment. That's not the way our commitments in church go. People are committed, and so they do talk. But they just think, oh, well, our life, and we'll just go, and it'll be fine. And then you find out, like, oh, yeah, we didn't renew our lease, and we're going to be moving in about six weeks. We've already signed a lease somewhere else. And you're like, well, what good am I going to be?

Like, there's nothing to process here. Do you need help packing boxes? I mean, that's all, like, and here's a, you know, maybe here's a recommendation for a church up there or something, but, like, there's no more. I've had guys, I had that happen one time. I had another guy who was, like, he was a few weeks away from listing his house. And he literally said to me, well, the decision's not final. Talk me out of it. And I just laughed. I was like, I could talk you out of it. You're moving. Like, you've engaged a realtor. Yeah, what you're talking about is. a person who is talking to you, but their conversation with you is basically a formality. There's not, there's not, nothing's actually on the table at that point in the process. Yeah. And I'm sympathetic. I don't know my heart as well as I should either. And so there are times where I think, oh yeah, this is an open discussion. And it's like, yeah, my brain might think that, but my heart's got a whole other agenda that I'm not tracking with until someone pushes. And all of a sudden I'm like, well, we're not going to do that. And I'm like, oh, wait a minute.

I think my heart might've been a little further down the road than my head. Yeah. Like logically I'm trying to make sense out of it, but my heart has decided we're going and we'll figure out all that other stuff later. Brain figure that part out, but the heart's already packed its bags. And so I'm sympathetic to people not knowing that about themselves. That's part of the reason I want to say it here is like, you should know that about yourself. If you should take your impulses seriously, you know, when, Your desires, that fleeting thought. Scripture tells us to take every thought captive. And Jesus tells us that if we look on a woman with lust in our hearts, those little things matter. And if you're thinking about, well, maybe we'll just, I was wondering, what do you think? That should be an indication to you that these things are in play. Yeah. We almost need a Mike Pence rule for churches. Yeah. And so, So my encouragement as far as the way to leave is you should get counsel. And the other thing I'll say about getting counsel is you should not cherry pick your counsel. That's the thing. It's like we won't get counsel. We'll just make our own decision and then we'll kind of inform of our decision, but we'll make it sound like it's counsel.

And then if we're like, oh, well, I'll go get counsel, then we start going, okay, well, who will think this is a good idea? And it's not a question of who you get counsel from, it's a question of who you refuse to get counsel from. You're like, I'm not talking to them about this. And I'm like, well, why? Why wouldn't you talk to your elders or your pastor about this? Like, what are you afraid they're going to say? Like, we've had people leave and I go, okay, well, God bless you. Like, if God's calling you away, He's calling you away. What would you say to somebody, Dave, that's in a context where they feel like their pastor is just going to say to them, well, it's not God's will, no matter what their reason is. What – in other words, do you feel like in that kind of context, like, do they have an excuse to just kind of run in the night? Can they do a Jacob and Laban thing where they just kind of like flee and – because I'm trying to do a little devil's advocate here, okay? Like, is there a context where –

abusive or controlling or manipulative, do you think in those kind of contexts, it's just fine just to walk away? Or do you think that there's actually some benefit to still having conversations? I mean, it's hard to have a one-size-fits-all. People have that same sort of thing in their family. Kids want to talk to their parents about something, about a decision they're making. Their parents just won't. They refuse to have the conversation. And it's like, well, so does that mean the kids never can act on it? I remember telling a young a young lady one time she was wanting to move and her parents wouldn't talk to her about it because they didn't want her to move. And so every time she tried to bring the conversation up, it just stonewalled or change of subject. She's like, what am I supposed to do? And it's just like, should you, you know, should I buy the plane ticket? Should I buy the plane ticket? Like she move whenever you want, but really like talk to your parents about it first. And at some point, like after months of trying and being not getting anywhere, I said, okay, we need to,

shift from having a conversation, like I wanted to talk to you about it, to like, I've made a decision, I need you to know about it. And because you're an adult, but you're not a peer of your parent, and so it's not a church scenario, but there was this unwillingness to have the discussion. And it's like, well, so are you bound in that situation? It's like, do everything you can to talk to them. But if they're saying, we are not willing to actually engage in the conversation, whether that's through That's just, no, no, God won't have you do that. I understand that impulse as a pastor to just be like, I don't want this to be the case, so I'm just going to tell you it's not. And that may just be a misplaced grief on the pastor's behalf. Or it could be a controlling, like, I'm going to keep you, no, you have to do what I say. And I think that's inappropriate and wrong, because we're not God. You don't know what the will of God is. I can't say with certainty that.

you should or shouldn't do this. I find when young people want to get married, many times they want to know, do you think I should marry them? And it's like, I don't know exactly what you're asking me, but if you're asking me, do I think that this person will keep you from pain and grief and sorrow and potential divorce or sickness or all of the ups and downs of life, I can't promise you that. That is your decision. That is not my decision. I can tell you what I... what I see or what my concerns would be are things to keep an eye on, but that's your decision. And when it comes down to moving, you don't have to have, everyone doesn't have to agree, but I just think it's mature and godly to say, this is what I want to do. What do you think about it? Like, remember we talked earlier about having conflict in the church? Well, here's a really simple place where you can have the conflict, which is to say, we're thinking about leaving, or we're thinking about taking this job, or we were really offended when

You said this in your sermon, or you have this theological whatever. Like, just have the discussion. Yeah, to piggyback off what Pastor Dave was saying, like, Martin's question is, what do you say to the person who thinks their pastor's just going to say, it's God's will for you to stay, no matter what their reasoning is? And I think of it as, sometimes you have to respect the office. And your pastor is your shepherd. And you're a sheep. And so, even if you think that what he's going to do is likely going to be selfish or controlling or sinful, you should still go to him and have the conversation anyway because out of respect for the office that he has. Well, yes. And further, if you don't trust him, just say you don't trust him. If that's an indication of I don't trust you.

To be fair with me. It may be that what he's not willing to do is just give in to you and say, okay, yeah, sure. But I can imagine someone coming to me and saying, this is what I want to do. And me saying to them, no, that is bad for you. There is no reason for you to do that. And if you do that, that is a failure. of your love for these people of God that he's placed you among. There is no reason that you have to do this. You are choosing to do it, and it's selfish of you to do, and therefore you ought not do it. I can imagine saying that, but I'm trying to think of an occasion where I have, I've never said that exact thing, but I'm sure I've said things like that, but I've not always said that. Sometimes the situations are different, and there have been situations where that were tense, where there was disagreement, and people wanted to leave, and you'd say, okay, well, yeah, I mean, it may be time for you to go. We're not the fit for you. We're not the place. I remember a pastor telling me one time where he had a family that was chronically thinking about leaving over years.

And he would always talk them down and talk them down and say, no, no, I think it's going to be okay and you should stay and here's why. And at one point, this had become like a semi-annual conversation. And the family had their struggles and at one time the husband went and met with the pastor and the pastor said, you know, this seems to be becoming a very regular thing. I think you're probably right. I think it is time for you to go. And it was a shock to the man. It's like the pastor had keyed in on the actual problem, which is like, this is becoming a way of life. You're settling into a state of discontentment and expecting us perpetually to talk you out of it. It'd be like having an 18-year-old son living in your house who doesn't want to abide by the family rules and say they don't want to be there for dinner or do their chores or whatever. They just want to...

They're just grumpy. And it's like, well, you know, you're big enough to make that decision. You know what? I think you should. I think it is time for you to go on out and do what you want. Buy your own supper. Yeah. Like, yeah, I think it's time for you to take that step of independence and to move on. I've said that to people before. That particular story was not me, but there have been times where someone has come and said, I think that I should move on. I've tried talking people out of it when they've gone. And talking someone out of not leaving the church is about as successful as talking them out of not dating the person they're dating. I mean, occasionally it happens. But the change of heart that you're actually looking for, that's rare. And it does happen. I mean, but it's not that common. And so, talk to your pastor. Get his counsel. Be honest about what's really going on.

If there's something you don't like about the church or something that's, if the real reason you're leaving, I think you should tell the pastor that. I do try to, for people who've been around, I do try to take sort of an exit interview of sorts. Or I do it with new people who come to the church. What stood out to you? What were the good? What was lacking? And they're always weird by it. I do the same thing with people who leave. Because you very rarely get the honest thoughts of people. So I ask for them. I don't always like what I hear. But yeah, I think you should talk to your pastor. I think you should get counsel. I think you should do it before your heart's set. And one other thing I would say is that it's not just your heart, but it's your spouse's heart. Generally speaking, wives want stability and want to know where the home is. And so when talk of moving the home,

arises, it's very hard on them and they tend to want to just settle the question without working their way through it. And it feels embarrassing or it might be uncomfortable. And whether your wife's a part of the conversation or not, I really do think it's important to have the conversations and to process and work through it. For my part as a pastor, when I have those sorts of conversations with people, I don't know exactly what is good for them but i do know that i want good for them and i don't want to be the the the cause of harm and so on the one hand it hurts when they leave and it's disappointing um i also don't want to make it more miserable than it is like you know speaking for myself for our elders like if people do want to leave or need to leave then they can i just said to a recent high school graduate i said listen we've invested in you all these years and we love you and your parents love you. And when you go, he's going off to college far away. And I said, come back. Once you get done with college, come back. I don't just mean for the summers and breaks. I mean, come back. There's lots of work in Indianapolis for what you're being trained in. Come back to Indianapolis. I expect you to come back to Indianapolis. I love you. Like come be a blessing. And so, um,

Yeah, if I can kind of sum up a little bit, if we're going to summarize, like, how should you leave a church, I think the answer is humbly and repentantly, right? That we ought to be recognizing that if there's problems at the church, we, if you're leaving a church, then you're part of the problem. Like, part of the reason these things happen is because of your own sin. And that needs to be right in front of your face as you're leaving. recognizing that your perspective might be wrong. You might be misconstruing the situation. And maybe you decide to leave anyway, but I think we ought to strive, except in extraordinarily rare situations, that we leave with some fear and trembling, that we're doing a heavy thing, that a bond is being broken.

That a vow is being reversed, and that's not something we do lightly, and we do it with fear and trembling, with conviction that this is necessary at the time. And that's the way you can uphold church membership, even as you're breaking your church membership. Yeah, and I think the final thing I'll say is don't apply the thinking of secular employment to leaving a church, because you're not leaving a job. If you're able to stick around and help transition your responsibilities or to write down your processes, whatever it was that you were responsible for, if you can help transition those to other people, that's a blessing and a kindness. And so much as you're able, you should do that. And if it delays you by a few weeks or a month or something, then it does.

You want to be a blessing and give to the people who've given to you. Well, thanks for joining us on this four-part series of being a good church member. And what I'll end with is if you guys have topics you'd like to hear about, we'd be happy to hear them. We have an email address that is available and Martin might know. So, put it in the show notes. Yeah, I'll put it in the show notes. Clearnotechurchpodcast at gmail.com. All right. So reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you guys. Love to hear your feedback, your topic ideas. If you think we fell down on the job or we forgot to talk about something important, we'd like to hear that too. And thanks, and we'll be back with you soon.