What Does It Mean To Be a Good Church Member?

Welcome back to Fluidcast. I'm your host, Tim Dukeman. I'm here with Pastor Dave, Timothy Deaton, and our producer, Martin. And today we're going to talk about what it looks like to be a good church member and have an actual strong commitment to the church. So, Pastor Dave, as you look back on your 13 years of experience as a pastor, what... Stands out to you as an example of someone actually being faithful and actually showing commitment to the church, even when there's a cost to it. Well, it's a lot easier to remember the stories of people who don't stick around than the ones that do. Probably more of those stories, too. Yeah, maybe. One of the stories that stands out to me is one of our elders years ago had moved up to Indianapolis. He wanted to be a dentist.

The training and the time commitment and the financial commitment to becoming a dentist was very high. And so he spent years in training. And then he came to the end of his training and the question was what he was going to do and really where was he going to go for work. And there was a lot of discussion on the table. Of course, all that discussion didn't center around Indianapolis, at least not in the beginning. The question was, is there work? for me. And he was thinking, I may have to go here, I may have to go there. Anywhere really in the country was the initial thought. It's an understandable fear. When you're coming out of school looking for your first job, you're going, I feel like I don't really have any choices or really any say in this. But as that time approached and as he started looking for jobs, the other pastor here at the church at the time, Went to him and said, you know, I think you essentially said to him, I wasn't in the conversation, essentially said to him, I think you should limit your looking to Indianapolis. I think you should be committed to finding work here. And we can all understand the fears as to that proposition. Well, what if I can't find work? And what if I have to start paying my loans back? And what if we can't? You know, it's all the what ifs.

And the exhortation was just, I think you should have a commitment to this church. You're a new elder in this church, and I don't think you should leave. I think that you've bound yourself here through vows, and in his case, through ordination into office, and that that ought to play, should be an ordering principle in his decision-making process. What was really sweet was he went along with that. He thought, yeah, that makes sense. My wife and I are going to settle in and put down our roots here in Indianapolis, and then we'll figure work out. We're not going to go wherever the work leads us and then figure church and life out. And so in that sense, his commitments were unique. They were kind of backwards, I suppose, as opposed to how most people would think about it. But I thought his commitments were really good in that he said, I have commitments and responsibilities to this church.

and to the people of this church, and I'm unwilling to forsake those just for money, just for a job. And he did not have any trouble, really. He never went without work here in Indianapolis, and he owns his own practice now here in Indianapolis and is here to stay. And interestingly, I was talking to him about this recently, and what he said was, in the short term, I was thinking very short term, and in the short term it would have been better. For me to go, I could have potentially made more money right away, or I could have made better progress right away. But he says, now having been here for whatever it's been, 10, 12 years since he's been out of dental school, that the blessings of having stayed far outweigh any of the short-term benefits he would have realized by leaving. And those are his words, not mine. Just in preparation for this, I was talking to him about it. And that's what he said. He said, people don't realize when they're making these decisions, the long-term effects.

of making those decisions. But he was able to think through those things in a way that, or see now. I don't know that he saw it at the time. I think he just thought, I've got my commitment to this church and to the people. We love each other and we're bound together. And so everything else is going to have to get in line behind that, that commitment. And it's gone well for him. It's worked out for him. I think people have a hard time recognizing how valuable it is to be rooted in one place. And stay there for a long time and be committed to the same group of people in the same location over time. And so I think that's something that people in the modern Western culture radically underestimate the value of that. Because I've seen that in my own life where we had kind of a similar conversation to what you're talking about a few years ago. And I'm so grateful that we stayed and maintained our roots here.

And I think people underestimate the negative effects also of transplanting yourself to a new location and trying to reforge connections. It's like trying to replant an actual plant. If you replant the same pot in different locations, you can have what's called root shock. And I think we underestimate the effects of root shock on plants. on our families and on our own spiritual health. Yeah, I think one of the things that we need to mention and just sort of tease out at the beginning is that the idea that people would be committed to their church is, it's like a bad word. You're not supposed to talk about this kind of a commitment if it requires any sacrifice for the people involved.

that commitment is good as long as the commitment doesn't have a cost associated with it. But if it has a cost associated with it, then all of a sudden it's like, well, that would be unreasonable for me to expect me to continue to be committed when there's a perceived risk or cost or burden associated with it. I've been thinking about what do people think church membership is like? What are their commitments to the church? I think anytime there's commitment, on the table, it just makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck. You're not supposed to talk about it. A really basic commitment to a church would be that you would give to the church financially. And it's a weird thing. Pastors, elders, the church, they're not supposed to talk about the money. They're not supposed to talk to the people about their money. And I think it's a shame because you're telling them, we don't expect you to be committed. I've gone and visited a handful of churches over the years where

When it's time for the offering or the, well, yeah, the offering, the passing the plate or whatever they do, they go out of their way to say, we don't expect new people to give. Now, I'm not here saying I expect new people to give to the church. I think they should share all the good things with those who teach them, that they should receive the benefit. But I'm afraid that what those churches are doing is actually teaching people, we don't expect you to be committed to our church in any real way. And if you are committed, it's entirely voluntary. It's all up to you, and it's all up to your schedules and your own priorities. But we don't plan on ever speaking to those commitments or those priorities. And I think that that's a shame. I think it's harmful. I think it's an area of discipleship. At this point, I'm not talking about the money, the tithing.

only, but just in general, that the church doesn't say, we expect you to be committed to this place and to these people here, to the families and the children of this church, not just a church. I think that young people also, beyond money, the other thing that they may be willing to do in terms of commitment to their church is they may be willing to serve if you ask them to serve. But one of the things that I find is, I remember when I was new to the faith, really, but new to New to church. And I remember this woman coming up to me one time and she's talking to me about how the toilet paper holder in the women's restroom was too far away for her to reach. That's kind of a funny story, right? And she's talking to me because she thought, well, maybe you're a deacon-y type young man in the church. I don't know how to fix that. Maybe someone could move it because short people like me have these problems.

And I love the woman. She's a dear woman. And I just thought, why don't you just go buy a toilet paper holder and put it in the church? Like, I'm sorry you're short and you can't get what you need. But why don't you just go, why don't you, you know, the old saying is, you know, be part of the solution, not part of the problem. Like, why do I have to fix this problem? Why don't you just go to Walmart or wherever and buy a $20 toilet paper holder that sits on the floor? And put it a little closer so that people in your position don't have the trouble. So, where do you think that mindset comes from that she expects someone else to solve her problem? I think that's a normal thing that we do. I don't know that we have to be taught that. Like, we'd all love to have other people serve us and do for us as opposed to do for ourselves. Do you think it might have something to do with an overall view of the church that it's like a service that you're buying?

I don't know if I'd put it in terms of buying, but I do think that people view church as a place where they come to receive and not a place where they come to give. They may give of their time if you ask them to give of their time, or they may give of their resources if you ask them to give of their resources, but they don't come pre-programmed to say, how can I be a help to this church? I remember when we planted the church, Joseph and I were young. Joseph, the other pastor, and me. I think we started this church when we were 28, both of us. So we were young men. But one of the things that we would run into were people who understood. Usually if they'd been in a church plant before, they were like, we don't want to be in a church plant because we know how much work that is. And they would tell you that. That's a very common sentiment with church plants is that it's like the people who start churches have to be like, they're like stem cells. They've got to be willing to do all kinds of stuff.

When our church first started, like, if you were a member of our church, you served in the nursery. And that included all the men of the church. It's not that way now. The only people who didn't serve in the nursery were Joseph and me because we were preaching or leading the worship service. But every other adult in our church served in there. And they were on the rotation. They were just expected to do that. And some people would be like, well, I don't want to come to church and serve in the nursery with my wife all day and then leave because there's only one worship service. And they say, oh, that's just.

That's not for me. They didn't want to serve is what it came down to. So I think that that sort of idea is natural to us, but I also think that the church has generally has taught people, like, you come here to receive, you don't come here to give. And so we're sort of reaping the fruit of that. It's sort of the fruit of autonomy and individualism where we just like, really in our whole lives, not just our church commitments, We just are led to think about ourselves and what we want, what we like, what we think is important, and how to get it. And we don't look at other people. It's a really basic way that we don't think in terms of having been taught to love our neighbor. And so I think that's something that we should, as a church, or that church members should realize as a problem or a weakness. That when you come to church, especially if you see a weakness or a lack,

that you should say, okay, well, I can help with that instead of saying, well, they don't have that all set up for me, so I'm not going to come there. I think that's just a shame that Christians would view church that way and say, well, if they haven't already, without any of my input, any of my help, any of my investment, if they haven't already built what I expect to be there, then I'm not going to be a part of it. I think that's completely wrong-headed as Christians. I think we should, whether it's a church plant or a more established church, I think you should be willing to come in and say, How can I help? It's one of the sweetest questions that the elders, the pastors, the Women's Ministry Committee can receive. Hey, how can I help? Or hey, I saw this thing going on and would it be helpful if I did this? Or I would be willing to. Those are sweet things for people to say. And they do say that sometimes. But I think that it's not said or done enough. It's the church and the ministries of the church.

I think it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that that's all done just by the pastors and the elders. And their wives, maybe. And that they're the ones who do the official ministry. And everyone else is just here to receive. And I don't think that's right. I think that the church is a family. It's a household. And in a well-functioning household, everyone in the house has responsibilities and has chores or jobs. commensurate with their ability and and they have jobs that are meant to make them grow to like push them to become better at things they're not naturally good at but when we come into the church it's like no we just come in and we sit and we receive and we enjoy and we leave and i don't think that's right something i think about is that the church is meant to be like an army the bible uses martial metaphors all over the place and if if uh an army were were to conquer a hill

there would never be an expectation that they wouldn't have to make camp there, that they wouldn't have to set up places to sleep. Like once they've conquered that hill and they're occupying that territory, the expectation is obviously the soldiers are going to have to build a camp and maybe make barracks if they're going to stay there a long time. But we don't have that sort of mentality as it comes to church, like of us having, oh, we're going to have to create. places for us to live we're gonna have to build those structures we're gonna have to develop um institutions um for us to stay here for a long time but we ought to as as christians we ought to think of our churches as like a forward operating base where we are occupying this territory so that we can conquer yeah i think so i think people i i wish that christians had more of a vision of what they bring to the church and what they can give to the church. And maybe a better way to get at that point is what would be missing if they left? If the answer is nothing, then something's wrong. And I'm not saying the person who's been here for one month per se, but if you've been there, if you're a member of the church, the idea that you could leave and nothing would be missed is just awful to me.

Really, when I think of what being a good church member is and commitment, what I end up thinking is commitment is a, it's not just people's commitments to their church. People tend to either be high commitment or low commitment in their whole life. And so the guy who's moving through jobs every year or two is probably a low commitment type of guy. He would never agree to that. He'd say, oh, well, this job, it was that. And this job, it was the other. And then there was this boss. And then there was that schedule. And then there was this, they have all those reasons. But if you say, but over the course of 10 years, you've not settled in anywhere. And it's not just the industry, because not everyone in your industry does what you're doing. There's something about you that's lacking or deficient. And it's causing you real trouble in your life. And I just want to point that out to you.

If you're a low commitment person, it's probably true that you don't have a lot of long-term friends, close friends, the kind you fight with. Not the kind you just disagree with once or twice a year on Facebook or at a get-together, but people you've been in conflict with and then you've gotten back up and you still stick together. People who have high commitments will work their way through conflict without just checking out and leaving. But that's something that has to be taught. I mean, in our society, if you're not happy, if people aren't making you happy, you're supposed to just get away from it. That's the actively get away from it. Yeah, remove the toxic person from your life. Yeah, and it presumes that all discomfort relationally is harmful to you. When actually, I think sometimes relational discomfort is a blessing and good for you. It's pointing out a weakness.

When you bring that sort of mentality into the church, you say, okay, well, what's here for me, and what do these people, what are they about, and do I like it already? What are they going to give me? And if I don't like it, I just don't ever go there. I don't commit there. And we do it thinking that there's not a cost to being that laissez-faire about our commitments, that if we're not going to stick with it, we act like, oh, well, it's There's no big deal. There's no harm to me. But remembering Abram's story, the dentist, that was not his thought. He's like, we are way better off as a family and spiritually to having integrated into the church and stayed here these years. I was looking at, I did a very quick Google search about how long do people stay in typical churches?

Google said 10 to 13 years. And then there was this like footnote that was like, well, you have to realize that there are some people in small rural churches in these settings, you know, basically where there's not any other choices that really skew this number up. And I went away looking going, okay, so the people's commitment to staying in a church is low. 10 years is not a long time. That's not, you didn't raise your kids at one church. I mean, Tim, you grew up and you went to how many churches? A bunch. Like it was like, where are we going this month? Okay, where are we going next month? Where are we going? You get a certain type of experience, but you're also missing those deep and lasting relationships. It's different for you than it was for Martin, where you guys were grown up in the same church. Yeah, my grandpa started the church in 1947, and it was the church I spent my...

entire life in other than a short stint where my parents kind of did a pulpit supply for one year. And then my year, I went away to a high school for one year for my senior year, and I went to one year of college away from home. And other than that, that was my entire life from the time I was three years old until I took a pastorate at 27. And that would be seen as weird, that you grew up, your dad grew up, and then the kids and the grandkids were all in the same church growing up. That's just, it's quaint. I mean, it's sweet. But there's a real benefit of the fabric of the relationships and the commitments and the institutional history and memory that there is a lot of good in that. That if you're constantly bouncing around, you don't.

You don't have that. You don't know you're missing it because you've never actually had it. There's a belongingness. Yeah. I realize whenever I go home to visit now, like there's a certain belongingness that happens when – well, think about people that have lived in one house their whole life or two houses their whole life. That kind of person has a connection to their home place that they wouldn't have otherwise. Yeah, something I think about with the high commitment, low commitment contrast is we understand this as Christians when it comes to dating. We tell our kids to not do casual dating because it's practicing for divorce. But we don't have that mentality at all for church, where we're willing to date churches and not marry them. And I think that that's a good example of how inconsistent our thinking is on this issue.

So, I wanted to kind of reframe the conversation a little bit of what does it look like to have a good, strong commitment to a church? And is there anything else that you'd want to add on that point of what it looks like to have a healthy commitment to the church that's balanced, where you're not necessarily, like you're not staying in an actively bad environment that's harmful, but you're committed even though it's hard, and you're willing to work through the hard times? Yeah, I mean, we started talking about there being hard times. And in life, outside of the church, in your workplace, in your marriage, with your kids, there are going to be down years. There are going to be hard years. And one of the things that is necessary is that you'll persevere through those hardships and those difficulties and those disagreements and those burdens and those frustrations and that anger and those things that...

Everything in us says, I just want to get away from this. I just want to go away. You're losing something and giving something up that's necessary and valuable if you just check out when things get hard. And so I think the first thing, what should it be like? I don't think you should be looking for the door when there's a conflict. I don't know how many times. It's more often than I wish that people will just leave. And they don't even say goodbye. They may not even send an email. You may reach out to them and find out, you know, like, hey, I haven't been to church in a few weeks. And someone's just like, hey, we missed you. What's going on? And, oh, we decided to go to a different church. Okay. Like, what's going on? Like, why? Like, oh, well, we, somebody said something that we didn't like. Someone corrected our kid. You guys don't really have the sort of ministry that we were.

hoping for. The pastor said something in the sermon. But there was no engagement about the issue. Just, oh, there was an issue, we're leaving. And it's just so harmful and common and destructive. I mean, the point I want to make here is we really should. to stick around when there's conflict. I mean, if you read the New Testament and the epistles, and you look at the life of Jesus, like, what did they spend all of their time doing? They spent all their time dealing with the conflicts in the church. And the people stayed. The people, like, you know, Jesus said, well, are you going to leave me too after everyone had left him because he said something? And they're like, well, where else are we going to go? But that sentiment amongst church members is lacking. The idea, well, where else are we going to go? Like, well, we'll just go to the place down the street. But what if But that's not your family. Those aren't the people that you've been connected to for the last 5, 10, 15 years. How long? I have a couple. I have actually a number of good friends, but two very close friends. One of them we've been friends for about 12 years, 11 or 12 years. And so we've been friends since before I ever got married. We've known each other since.

I met him the first time when he was dating the woman who's now his wife. And we've been through a lot of conflict. I have another friendship, and I kind of connected to growing up in the same church in the sense that my parents gave me some continuity in life. So my mom went to Bible school with a lady, and they were roommates, and they became very close friends. And now... I am very close friends with that lady's son. So he and I have been friends since before I can remember. We have had so many fights. There's been times where we completely disagreed. We were raised in the same denomination and we are the same group overall, and we left for completely different groups. I'm in a Reformed church, he's in a Pentecostal church, but we're still great friends. And that's meant that investment actually was It meant when he was going through a really difficult time and had left the church that he had been part of, every single time I would talk to him, I would say, hey, where are you going to church? And his reply would be for maybe six months, I don't know. His reply was, well, we haven't found anywhere yet. We're worshiping at our house. And he knew that it wasn't okay with me, and I was willing to kind of...

spend some of my friendship capital to tell him, you need to be in a church. And fortunately, he's been now in the church that he's at five, six years, and I'm grateful for that. But his friendship with – our friendship was able to bear the weight of conflict and disagreement. And now, after enough years, and especially the fact that it's a second-generation friendship, I can't imagine any circumstance or situation in which I would say, you know what, we're just not friends anymore. We may not talk for two months, but we're still very good friends. And there's a lot of benefits and value that come out of that. Yeah, I think that being willing to deal with hardship or disagreement, whether that's personal or theological or relational, it's just essential. And if you won't do that, you'll run into the same thing at work. It's a toxic work environment. My boss is this, there's a co-worker that.

my neighbor this, the HOA has these rules. It's just, are you willing to work with people that aren't exactly like you or are you not? That's really the question. That's one thing I think that a principle that has to be planted and grow within us is that you won't just leave when things get a little bit turbulent, maybe even a lot turbulent. The other thing about conflict is you have to look at how the Bible talks about us in relationship to one another and to God. It's all familial. Fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, sons, daughters. It's all familial. And so this idea that we're just autonomous and have no obligations to people that scripture refers to as our family. When they said, hey, Jesus, he was teaching, they say, hey, your mom and your brothers want to talk to you. And he says, behold, my mother and my brothers, those who do my will. This is my family. And you're like, wait, whoa, you have a commitment to these people that's not just take it or leave it. You're committed to them. Jesus is committed to his brothers and sisters, those who make up the bride. He died for them. He's committed to them. If their commitment to him, as it's mediated and processed through the church,

is something that we're trying, that is what we're trying to get at here. It's not just come and take it or leave it or don't. And it's like, we're all supposed to say, well, it's okay. Or they had to leave or it was, it, you know, these things just happen. And as a pastor, I never feel that when people want to leave the church or, or thinking to leave the church, I'm like, it's, it's, it's hurtful to me. And sometimes it's offensive to me. So let's unpack that family, family thing in our next episode. Sounds good. I was just about to say, get it out of hand. Tim, take it away. All right, so next time we're going to talk a little bit more about what it looks like to be a family. And the way the scripture speaks about that and what a sharp contrast that is with how Christians often think of it. So tune back in in a couple weeks and we'll be back with another episode of ClearCast. Two days of preparation Thy grace has made us strong now