How to Engage Men in Worship

Welcome back to ClearCast. I'm your host, Tim Dukeman. I'm here with, of course, Pastor Dave, our producer Martin, and special guest Timothy Deaton. And so last time we talked about how churches are struggling to bring men into the church and involve them in church life. And in many cases, churches struggle to even get men to be interested in the church at all. And so today we wanted to try to flesh out what does it look like for a church to transition toward an approach that's actually going to appeal to men, that's actually going to develop them, that's going to push them in the ways they need to be pushed. And so, take us away, Pastor Dave. Yeah. Before we get talking about how to, you know, answering the question, how do you get men engaged in church? So, I want to spend this episode and the next talking about how to get men engaged in worship particularly.

But before we jump into that, there was a thought I was having as we were in our last episode and we were talking about off air that I think is worth noting here. And that's that everything I was saying, like men want to be pushed. Men want to be discipled. Men want to be told no. And in my mind, I'm sitting here going, there's going to be people who are like, no, I don't. That's not what, that's not what, like all the things that you are saying are. wrong with the church I actually like, and it would be men saying it. And I just want to know, I'm not unaware of that objection, but I think it's worth pointing out that that objection is a new objection. Before maybe 40 or 50 years ago, the things I'm saying about men generally just wouldn't have been questioned. Everyone would have said, yeah, that's what men are like. That's what men want. And it's not to say that in men wanting to be pushed, that they respond to it well and happily out of the gate.

Actually, most men don't. When you push them, there's resistance, whether that resistance is just in their hearts and in their minds or whether that resistance comes out in an argument. It's not the sort of thing where they go, oh, and thank you so much. I'm so glad that you had to tell me what I needed help with and what I was doing wrong. That's not the normal male response. In one sense, we don't like being told that we've failed, but I think it is a characteristic of intrinsic to manhood that we go and consider that and respond to it manfully and say, I don't want to fail. I need to grow. So, I'm glad to have someone who will tell me where I'm failing and where I need to grow. That is maybe the simplest definition of a father or a pastor that we could have is someone who will point out our weaknesses and our sins and help us to remedy them and to walk with us through them. So, Tim introduced our

who all is sitting in today. And as we were talking and I was thinking about this issue of how to get men engaged in worship, I realized that of the four of us here, I have the least firsthand experience of what church is like, so to speak. It's very narrow. I spent a few months in a megachurch right as I came to faith, and then I ended up in our sending church down in Bloomington, Trinity Reformed Church. And then I've been at this church for almost 15 years. So my experience with other churches and what worship is like, what men is like, I've read a lot about it. I've heard a lot about it. But my experience level is lower than any of you guys. And so I wanted to start out by asking you guys sort of to set the table. And so the first question I've got for you is, what are some of the distinctives that stood out to you in your growing up or in conversation with your friends or family about men and their

place in the church or the interaction of the church. I don't want to just be saying, well, this is how it is, because that's what I think. You guys have some more experience than I do. So, what stood out to you in the connection of men's involvement in church in your growing up years? Yeah, so I think we should start with how the worship proceeds at many churches, that it's not only that the songs have very feminized, sentimental lyrics, It's that they're also – they're musically written in that way as well. And their design – the purpose of the way the song is written is to evoke an emotional response in the person singing it. And so there's – it's just a different kind of thing to seeing Leonardo King Eternal versus singing a song that really sounds a lot like – You're in this sort of romantic relationship with God. And one of those is a lot different. And the other thing I would add with that is that when you sing five, six, seven, eight songs in a worship service, you spend a lot of time being led, especially if the worship leader is a woman, being led by a woman. And sometimes – and she's getting emotional and like occasionally crying during the song. And it's like this is very weird. This is –

I'm cringing a little bit as I think about these things. So, you're saying – so, I'm listening to you and I'm hearing you say this harkens back to what we said in our last episode, which is that's the sort of – that's an example of the sort of thing men can't engage with. Someone crying or having an – I mean, you just think of husbands. Like, what do they do when their wives start crying? They're like, I don't know what to do. But then, at least then, it's happening in private. When it's happening publicly, men don't know what to do. They're like, we should cover this up. Yeah. Like, we should move on. This is not good. This is not pleasant. This is awkward. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Okay, okay. Go ahead. I didn't mean to cut you off. Yeah, and I think the other thing is that I think there can be an element of the preaching that's different at a lot of churches versus what we do that there is a large –

amount of, like, love your neighbor, like, the values, feminine values of getting along with people and being nice to people and helping them out and caring. Like, the value of care is so preeminent in the preaching and the way that it's delivered. Like, those are the two things that jumped out at me. What about you, Timothy? In the churches that I grew up in, there was never really, men didn't really engage. They didn't actively engage themselves in the worship. So, like, I didn't grow up watching men raise their hands during the singing, during the worship. I didn't experience them as a kid watching other men and learning what my place was in the church. Like, I didn't see them participating even in the preaching. There was no, there was very rarely any kind of encouragement to the pastor that he was on the right track or that he was speaking the truth or that the gospel was being preached. And so, yeah, there just wasn't any – there just wasn't really any engagement in the worship. Men didn't – you didn't hear men's voices. You mostly heard –

Women normally led the songs, and then you couldn't even hear men in the congregations. Most of them were either mouthing the words or just kind of standing with their arms crossed, not knowing what to do. I think the other thing was is that men weren't encouraged or called upon to actually confess their sins in a way that's manly. So if sins were discussed or talked about, they were, it was kind of like this past sentiment. It was like, that was my old way of living. That's not how I live now. And they also wouldn't, when men did actually confess their sins, it was kind of jarring because it's kind of this like sad, morose, I don't know exactly how to say it, except that it just felt really weak. Like it wasn't done with confidence. It was done with a lot of, you know, Hebrews tells us to come boldly to the throne of grace, right? To draw near to the Lord with confidence. But that's not how our men prayed. That's not how our men confessed their sins. They didn't do it in a way that's manly. They did it really wimpy. So, I've got a question for you. You said, I guess I understand when you're saying like the men didn't sing, then the voice of the congregational voice was predominantly feminine as opposed to masculine. But then you said the men didn't participate in the preaching.

What in the world does – what are you talking about? How do men participate in the preaching if they're sitting under it? Yeah, I think what I mean is that I don't think they were engaged. I just don't think they were actually paying attention and that they weren't responding. There was no response. The churches that I grew up in, you just went and then you went home and that was it. And so there was no – talk of discipleship. There was no, the men weren't being pushed, the men weren't pushing back. I think that, you know, one of the things that I've noticed is that the men that I'm around now in the church, in clear note, is that there's some pushback from the men when they hear hard things. Like, they actually do want to kind of resist, and I think that's actually, in some ways, that's natural. In some ways, it's natural for a man to get pushed and push back and there'd be this kind of back and forth. And the men in the churches I grew up with, they're just like, well, I guess that's okay. Yeah, they just kind of shrugged their shoulders. And yeah, I guess the pastor just knows what he's talking about. And then they didn't do anything with it. Like they didn't actually do anything with it. So there was an expert. So one of the things, and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but I'm trying to understand, is that there wasn't expectation for men to be engaged, either in the singing.

Or in actively considering the preaching, it was like, you're here and that's really all we hope for you. I don't even know that we expected of you. Yeah, that's exactly right. Okay, okay. So you guys didn't come from Clearno. You obviously didn't grow up here. You've come from evangelical Baptist, Southern Baptist type churches. So when you came to Clearno, What was different? Like what stood out to you as being like the same sort of observations question? What was like, huh, about this is different. What would you say about that? Well, I mean, the first thing I would jump to is that the songs being sung are totally different. And here there's a rootedness in our worship in that.

We're singing the same songs that Christians have sung for hundreds or in some case thousands of years. And so, that gives a weight to the worship. We're not just singing the song that was popular on the radio this week. We're singing songs with rich theological truths that have stood the test of time. Hey, so, this is just a curious question. Do you think that there is a universal qualitative difference? between old songs versus new songs being more or less masculine or accessible to men not in the strictest possible sense but as a generalization absolutely um so almost always the more the older song will be more masculine there would be very rare exceptions to that but not very many um and that's because of the fact that we live in a thoroughly feminized age and so if you want to write a song that's going to appeal to the masses in a feminized age it has to be a In many ways, feminine values are America's values. And so, it would be anathema to write some of the songs that now, that were written hundreds of years ago. They're kind of grandfathered in. Like, we won't anathematize the song now, but you couldn't write a song like that now. Yeah, it seems like the scope of what is written about these days in terms of Christian music has really narrowed. Themes of war, themes of judgment.

or righteousness just aren't being written about now the way they were in past generations. And those are things that appeal to men. And that's because those, those themes are threatening to the spirit of the age. They're threatening to the culture. And we, and so now our songs like much of what qualifies as like popular evangelicalism is trying to make the church non-threatening. Yeah. I'm with you. So, Since we're talking about music, I'm curious. I didn't tell you I was going to ask this question ahead of time, but now here I'm going to surprise you guys. Favorite song? My favorite song? Yeah. Probably the lead on The King Eternal. Okay. Honestly, it's so refreshing. Yeah. What about you, Timothy? I think mine's Mighty Fortress.

Oh, that's, yeah. Acapella? Yeah, I love the acapella version in our church, Mighty Fortress. It feels like Luther standing right there with you. Yep. Except we sing it in English. Oh, yeah, that's a great one. What about you, Martin? I don't know if there's any way I could pick one favorite. Our family has been singing, oh, Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken. We sing that a lot. And that's an old song. Yes, it is. It's been rearranged to modern instrumentation. But yeah, it's old and good. We love that. We sang His Mercy is More, which is a new one from Keith and Kristen Getty. But my kids really enjoy both those a lot. One of my daughters now is wanting us to sing He Arose, which I don't know if we sing that often at our church. I'm not sure where she... She may have heard it on like a school CD or something, but...

As far as what we sing at church, I would say in my top three would definitely be Glorious Things of the Year Spoken. Yeah. So interesting. It's older songs. And it's worth noting to those listening, we're not actually opposed to new music. We just want good depth in music. I think a lot of us would be grieved over the state of the superficiality of... of worship songs, that really the goal is that the instrumentation is meant to evoke an emotional response as opposed to engage our minds in a truth. And one of the ways that this is most evident, at least to me, is in the repetition, the constant, constant repetition of more modern songs as compared to older or more thoughtful modern songs now. Right. And we do...

actually have a principle about singing psalms. When you said earlier, you're like, well, hundreds, if not thousands of years old. And I'm like, people are like, thousands of years old? And it's like, yeah, the psalms. It's God's prayer book. It's a song book. So, we enjoy singing them. If I can get a second favorite, it would be Psalm 10, Rise Up, O Lord. That song is amazing. But it's also exactly the kind of song that you could never sing in a megachurch because of how threatening it is to the wider culture. And the metaphors in the song are martial, and there's a military type of thing to it. It's about God destroying the wicked. Like, that's actually what the song's about. Right. But you can't sing a song like that now. Yeah, yeah. So, that's helpful, guys, in terms of understanding what the change – the difference in climate, so to speak. Because on the one hand, saying, okay, we grew up in churches that –

that were predominantly feminine. And the men who were there weren't, if I understood you correctly, you're saying the men that were there were not actually real engaged. But now at our church, the men are engaged and there are more of them. And so, I want to spend the rest of our time sort of talking about worship, like what sorts of things go on? If you're listening and you're like, well, okay, so you've talked a little bit about singing and a little bit about the about the preaching or maybe sin, and we're going to get into these things in a little more detail, some in this episode, some in the next. I want to start by spending the rest of our time saying, if we boil it down, what is the difference in worship? And I think in our church, one of the principles that we've tried to develop and implement is that worship is active and that that actually is appealing to men, that they want something that's active. They would

they would rather be engaged in song than just to be entertained by someone else, especially if the entertainment's not top-notch. I especially think if worship in church is not, if it's just like B or C grade as opposed to A, then it's even less engaging for men. So what kinds of things, in terms of proactive participation in worship, I know what I would say as being the things we're aiming for because I'm the pastor of the church and we've worked to implement them. But you guys came from the outside. So what sort of proactive things did you notice or that stood out to you in church in terms of involvement? There's an overall expectation when you come, when I got here, there was an overall expectation that we would just always be at.

certain church events, you would always be at Sunday school and Sunday service. Sunday service being, that's just a given. But even from the first week we were here, the amount of people that put pressure and the expectation, oh, hey, are you going to come to our small group? You should come to our small group. I think we got asked by four different small group leaders, and I think we only had five small groups at that time. And so there was an expectation early on that, If you're going to be here, you're going to be here. You're going to engage with us. You're going to be disciplined. We're going to love you. And if you don't like it, then there's not really a place for you here. I mean, we wouldn't say it that crassly or that harshly, but there would be an expectation, I think, that you would engage with us and that you would actually fellowship with us, not just show up on Sunday and leave. You know, show up.

hear the preaching and then sneak out. Right. Yeah. And I think, I think it's, as I'm listening to you talk, it's like, so what we did was we, as soon as you came as a visitor, we grabbed your wrist, twist your arm behind your back and said, you're going to, if you're going to be here, you're going to come to all this stuff. And it's, it's not like that. I hope it doesn't come across to you guys as being like that. When he says, he has been fired from the podcast. It's funny because, because I, I see my experience so completely different than that. So not in that I wasn't invited and urged to small groups and so forth, but it was an invitation, not a demand. And what I've personally appreciated, I realize there's upsides and downsides, but it's that there's freedom if there's ever...

If I have something going on or my family's just exhausted and we can't come to small group, I don't feel shamed about that. I'm not like – John would be like, okay, that's two of your three excused absences for this quarter, so you need to watch it. It's like, no, but there is a – there's a welcome and there's a warmth, and part of being a part is actually engaging in the events and what's going on. That's the way I would put it. Yeah, and I think that what I've often joked about in the church with regard to the different ministries outside of Sunday morning worship is I said, you know, we all are busy. Everybody's got stuff to do. And so if we're taking the time to create a ministry, it's because we really do think it's important and beneficial. Not just that there would be a help to you in your growth in Christian maturity and faith.

And so we say, we want you to come to these things. We think they're beneficial, whether it's men's group or women's group or Sunday school or small groups or church work days or whatever it is we've got going on, that we want you to come to this stuff and we need you to come to it. We don't want you to just come and be a passive receiver. We actually want you to come and we want you to give. I'm probably overstating my case, but one of the things that I think is important is that the churches, again, that I came from as an adult. So not just churches that I grew up in, there was never an expectation that you would actually be involved with the people. And I think that's more of what I, what I want to say is that, that there is an expectation that we would love one another in our church and that you would be involved and engaged. And it doesn't mean that you're strong armed and like held against your will and forced to come to small group. I know there. Yeah. So it just means that we,

We actually do try to have true fellowship and true community here at the church, and we want you to be a part of it. And it's expected in some sense that you would be a part of that, that you'd actually be a part of that. That's well said, Timothy. We thought for a minute we're going to have to kick you out, but we'll let you stay. We didn't know if there was a welcome for you or not. That's right. So other than that sort of proactive welcoming, what else has stood out to you in terms of coming to church? So let me jump in at this point to kind of go back to the worship elements. I think the first thing that hit me right away as like a strong contrast here is that there's a masculine quality to the worship. Like the songs themselves and also the way they're sung are sung in a masculine way.

Something that really stuck out to me shortly after I got here is that our worship leader is John Klug, who, if you don't know, has actually suffered for his faith. He had his life upset because he would not bow to the gods of this age. And having that man in front leading us to worship is powerful. His character also is part of it. Something that a lot of churches should think about more, like beyond just who's the best singer, but like what's the character of the person leading people into worship? And I think us having a man of that kind of character helps tremendously. Helps a lot, yeah. Yeah, he's not, he's led by example in his life. Some of the other things I've heard people talk about in terms of like the worship service that are kind of jarring or maybe unique is, is that the men raise their hands in worship. I don't know that it's uncommon in other churches for women to physically engage, but I don't think it's as common for the men to do it. And in our church, I think it's the majority of the men participate in that way. They sing out. As we said earlier, the songs are designed for men to be able to sing. And before even that, they're designed to be sung congregationally.

A lot of churches, the worship or the music is more performative than it is congregational. And there are some songs, there are some good Christian songs that are not meant for congregational singing. And if you have too many of those in worship, you're going to squelch the singing in general and certainly of the men participating in the singing. Another thing that we do that engages the men engages everybody, but I think it connects with the men, is that they're expected to participate in the service vocally outside of singing. Meaning we have responsive call to worship or responsive, there are parts where it's simply them saying thanks be to God or amen that's scripted. And they know there's an expectation that they would speak. And it's good for their wives and their children to see them doing it because they're like, oh, this is what we do.

Dad raises his hands in worship. Dad says amen. We stand when we read the scripture. And they say, oh, my dad stands. We have reverence for the word. We're standing at attention. And so if you can get men to do those things and participate in them, it connects with them on a really basic level. Another thing is we kneel. We have a corporate prayer of confession every week. And we always invite people to kneel if they're able. And the thinking behind that is just that we would put our bodies into, bring them into conformity with what we're doing. Confessing sins is a humble thing. We're coming before a holy God, and so we say we're going to put our bodies in a posture of humility as we say humble things. And I don't think that's normal in churches. I don't think that we would expect people to even say humble things, let alone put their bodies in a position of humility. I'm not aware of any church.

that's not Catholic, that expects people to kneel down. Yeah. And so those are some of the unique things. And also one of the sweet things I think our church has grown in, and I've wanted our church to grow in over the years, is after prayer, after there's a prayer in the service, that the congregation would say amen. It's sort of like expected, but everyone kind of like mumbles it to their chin. They don't say it so anyone else can hear. That's something I think our church has grown in, is people saying amen. And you may listen to this and be like, well, this is all so silly. And I'm like, well, it may be. And maybe some of these things could be silly, but we seem to be seeing some good fruit from it. The men are participating in these things and enjoying these things and are helped by these things. And it's because we've intentionally done them and given men entry points and access points.

And really have expected them. I think that's what you were getting at earlier, Timothy, was that you felt that there was an expectation for you. That you weren't just supposed, it wasn't take it or leave it, come and go. If you feel like it, great. If you want to, sure. But if you don't, that's all right, too. That there was a loving expectation of involvement and participation and commitment to it. And those things are, men generally respond to that well. If they're interested in growing. He said some men wouldn't like any of this stuff. And we've had men that have come and gone and have not liked some of the stuff we do. But I think that on the whole, it is attractive to men. I think one of the most helpful things, Timothy, you mentioned earlier confession of sin as being not real common in church, but then if it was done, it was like any sort of boldness, which would be a masculine trait,

was absent and, and that you said, Oh, well we come here. We're like, we confess our sins every week, um, as a part of our worship service at the beginning and that we do it boldly. It's not just this like, well, we're real sorry. And we know we screwed up and, and, and we should do better and we're going to try harder too. And, uh, we hope that it'll be okay with you. That I would say that is a very timid approach to God that we try not to, to cultivate. amongst us. We try to name the sins. We have a, before we confess our sins, we have a call to confession, which is just a verse or two from Scripture that acknowledges some particular sin or need to repent. And then our call to, and then our actual prayer of confession sort of expounds on that particular sin usually and how we've offended God in relationship to it. Pete And something that I think that what you're

What you're talking about with this confession of sin and naming specific sins and dealing with the realities of life is – I think the way that that produces fruit of men being more involved and interested in the church is that when you are regularly confessing sin and you're regularly bringing – coming to the throne of grace with particular things in mind, you – that – That gets rid of the sense of a facade that I think is so common at so many churches where it just feels like everyone pretending like they have it all together. And I think that sort of facade is repulsive to men. And so, we just show up and say, we're failing. And we recognize that. But we want God's grace to help us do better. And that, I think, is a big part of the appeal. Yeah, that we're not without hope.

That we can say, okay, this is who we are, what we've done. That when you become a Christian, your sin is dealt with in God's sight. And yet it is still a reality that you live with every day having to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Hoping and trusting in God's promises that he who begun a good work and you will bring it to completion. Well, it just makes sense that when you come to church, that working out of your salvation, And God sanctifying you over time should be a constant theme of the ministry of the church. And if what we say is, you're great the way you are, God loves you just how you are, that men are like, I don't, either God doesn't, he's just not very serious and doesn't take holiness very seriously. But it doesn't seem to make sense because his son had to die for it. But I'm being told now he doesn't really mind.

If he doesn't mind, then the people telling me that are either not helpful or they're just lying. I'm just being misled. But nothing here has got any weight or depth or substance to it. And so I'm like, well, I'm not. The prayers don't confront me. The songs don't confront me. The preaching doesn't confront me. The people don't confront me. Not everything is made to be smooth where I can come, I can participate in whatever level I feel like, which may simply be just being in the building for a period of time. And then I can leave and it'll all be smiles and see you next week. And most men who want to grow and become more like Jesus, that's just, there's nothing there for them. And that's the thing that men have said is they appreciate.

the singing. They appreciate the expectation. They don't always say, this is wonderful and I love it, but they appreciate that other men have taken an interest in their lives and in their souls. And so, I think that's a good place for us to sort of wind down this episode. In the next episode, I actually want to talk about the marks of the church and how those things should take men into account. That actually, The right preaching of the word, the right administration of the sacraments, and the proper administration of discipline are intrinsically masculine when they're done well. And part of the reason those things have fallen out of practice is connected to why men don't have a priority toward those things.

Because they're like, well, these things aren't done in a way that engages me. So I don't see the value of the utility in them. So that's what we're going to pick up and talk about next time. See you soon.