The Spurgeon Files- What a Girl Should Look For in a Guy

Welcome back to ClearCast. Today is part two of our discussion on marriage. So Joseph, when we ended our last discussion, there was this question of what we actually talk about in premarital counseling, but I feel like there was a question left hanging. And that question was, what should a young woman look for in a prospective spouse? When we talked about the man, we said, okay, well, he should look for someone he's... He's attracted to. We should look for a woman that's teachable and that is cultivating a gentle and quiet spirit. But I don't feel like we answered the question of what women should look for directly. Implicitly, we did address it by saying there are men who can exasperate a spouse or a prospective spouse. But I think we should come back and we should take a little bit of time to actually answer the question. If it was put to us directly, what should a woman be prioritizing in her evaluation of a man?

say that she ought to be looking in a sense of a whole lot of women today maybe have their standards too high. And so they're not really looking in a sense. They've placed their priorities and they think that the pool of the fish from is much larger than it is. And so I've just known of many churches where there are good, actually godly young men. and the girls will have nothing to do with the godly young men. Because I think they don't match every little thing that they need to tick off, and they're not perfect like their dad. Do you think this is the female version of exactly what we talked about in the last episode, young guys that need her to tick every single? Yeah, so like how the guy wants somebody that's going to fit all of his theological boxes, and she's going to be interested in every little thing.

She might feign for a while that she's interested in the Star Wars, but when you start talking about the Mandalorian armor and all the way that that works out, you've lost her, right? So the women do the same. And I think we're talking about Reformed churches and that culture. They're grown up in the homeschool. A lot of times they have that perfect dad. At least he thinks he's perfect. And that's what has been established. He teaches his kids that he's perfect. Yes. And so that's what they're looking for. And they're passing up on marriage. Like many of them are not even willing to look at the people around them. So I would begin by saying, just be willing to look at those who are around you, that God's placed around you. Now, that doesn't tell you what exactly to look for.

I think it's an openness to being married. Yeah. And I want you to actually answer the question about what character traits that a woman would look for. But I'm afraid that the similarity that Martin was pointing to is actually that both young men and young women want to marry somebody who's not a sinner. And they have to be so godly in so many ways. It's almost like no one's ever given them a mirror, so to speak. There are some men you look at and you're just like, dude, you're kind of short or you're kind of fat or, you know, you got a lazy eye or whatever. You know, he's not a catch, so to speak, physically. But he thinks he's going to get a catch in terms of appearance. And I, you know, maybe we're not supposed to say these things, but I think it needs to be said. Women aren't all they're cracked up to be either.

And if they haven't had parents or a church that tells them that, I think it really sets them up for pain later on because no one's ever talked to them about their shortcomings or their weaknesses. So they end up looking for a spouse that is of their caliber because no one's ever helped them see the log in their own eye, so to speak. So what should a woman prioritize in the midst of all of these pressures and feelings and fears? You've convinced her to look. What should she look for? Yes. It's almost the mirror image of what we've talked about. So is this a young man that is going to take leadership? Is he going to take responsibility for leading and responsibility to care for others? And one of the ways I would encourage this, is this a young man that's going to be serving and engaged in the church? Will others entrust him to handle things?

We're not talking that he necessarily has to be entrusted with everything, but can he be trusted to take responsibility? And that's the first thing I would begin with is, is this a man that will take some kind of leadership? Now, I'll be completely honest. When I first got married, I would not recommend that somebody married me. You know what I mean? And yet, there were some of those things that I had been taught. to take leadership in a little bit. Right. But if I can answer my own question, I would say to the young woman, you want to find a man who will submit to authority. That's probably the best indicator of whether or not he's going to be a good leader, because I think we conceive of leadership today as being almost exclusively, well, almost exclusively combative that to exercise authority is to fight. And if a guy, if all he does is fight that, largely means all he does is tear down and if you want to build a life like joseph was describing he needs to have some clue about building and he needs to have some humility to realize there have been people building the thing that he's aspiring to build literally for centuries and if he won't listen to any of them he's going to be a hard man to be married to if he's had five jobs in the last four months

just run. Well, I would say five jobs in the last four years. Yeah. But like basic thing is just like, is he able to work hard and well and consistently over a period of time? Because that's going to be a huge indicator of a lot of other parts of his character traits are going to come out in his ability to, to, to bear down on hard work or not. As I'm thinking about women, it's just hard to talk about because it's like, it's such a difficult conversation because Feminism says that there's not a dependence for women on men, that they should work proactively to not depend on a man. Well, that's not what the Bible teaches. It teaches, first of all, that it was not good for man to be alone, and it actually means it's not good for a woman to be alone as well. But actually, a husband needs a wife and a wife needs a husband, and we need each other for different things. And so a woman, in looking at the prospect of marriage, has to come to terms with...

what it means to be a woman. And I would submit that it's simply, at its most basic level, it means to be a dependent. And that feminism has rejected that and despises it and says, well, you need to be strong enough so you're not dependent on a man. And it's a really scary thing to depend on someone. Because what happens when they fail you, part of what I want to say to young women is, it's inevitable that he's going to fail you. in some ways. What we want you to be prioritizing is the nature of those failures. One of the primary ways he can fail you is by isolating you from the church, isolating you from other people. We would understand that if a man was pulling a woman out of all of her relationships, that's just a big red flag that says this is an abusive relationship. And yet, Men think of leadership nowadays as pulling the wife away from everything and making her utterly dependent on him. And I don't think that's good. I think that she should look for a man who submits himself to other men, to older men. I would say she should look at his relationship with his dad and particularly how he treats his mother. And if he has an adversarial relationship with his father and he despises his mother, that is not a good indication.

That's not a mark in favor of him. However attractive he is, however well-spoken he is, however wealthy he is or aspires to be, that actually you want a man who's humble. Because young men in Scripture are told to be sober-minded, to respect their elders, to learn from them, listen to them. And so young ladies ought to be looking for men demonstrating that sort of deference. But realizing that they need to learn stuff and that they are going to learn those things from older men. I think that's what I would put near the top of the list. Yes, provision. Yes, protection. But I think in our circles, or maybe at least the people listening to this podcast, I don't think those are the issues that aren't being addressed. But that you want a man who's not a rebel. I would add, along with that, a man that has some kind of drive.

yeah some godly ambition but not yeah not in a weird there's there's men that can get obsessed with stuff and then they often that little obsessions but some drive for something right in fact that's what women will find i think attractive is what i've sensed and is that uh because some young men they become all about trying to find the woman and then they're now driven just for the But the woman wants somebody that actually has a purpose outside of them. The way God designed that is the man had a mission, and the woman was to come along and help with that mission. And when she does, she becomes part of the mission, but she's not the mission. And a lot of times maybe the reason women are unattractive to some reformed young men is they make the woman the mission. And that's not attractive because – Well, for one, once the mission is accomplished, they're done. They move on to somewhere else. And then they don't have a drive to somewhere. They want to come along and help you build where you're going. That's why I said when I was talking about with my wife, she knew I was going to be a pastor, and that's where our mission was going to be aimed towards. So a man that has some drive somewhere, that he's going somewhere, that's what you want to look for.

You don't want a man whose drive is to play video games in his basement. Right. Or, again, like you said, bouncing from job to job normally, unless that is an example that he's actually – it's a progression upwards. And he's being promoted. That's why he's getting – Right, right, right. Yes. But he's got a mission. He's got an ambition in life. It's something you want. Somebody that they're not going to – make you the mission because if they do they won't lead you actually um they will they'll be submitting to you because everything will be about you and you get that all backwards you know think about the sun and the moon and the earth and the moon right the sun being god the earth the man revolves around the sun and the moon revolves around the the earth and it's what happens if you got it backwards now the moon was revolving The sun's revolving around the moon and all that stuff. And that's kind of what happens when the man makes the woman the mission is now the sun's revolving around the moon. And it actually makes everybody miserable. It does. It does. Yeah. So it's disordered. I want us to move on from this conversation to sort of how to deal with how to choose well, aside from these basic character traits, like in premarital counseling.

What does premarital counseling look like for you? What are your top priorities as a pastor in trying to help people choose wisely? Because I think it needs to be said that even if the couple is being pure, which is what we would teach and expect and aim at, the decision of picking a spouse is being done by those who are very young, typically younger. We make better decisions typically as we grow in godliness and as we get older. It stands to reason we would make a better choice or a more appropriate choice the older we get. But God's designed the world that young people would. They'd be getting married and having children when they're young. And so there needs to be involvement of the older and wiser. And I don't just mean the parents. Though obviously the parents have their role and play a part in this. And what I'd hope is that the parents as their children are getting older and getting interested in.

marriage and those prospects, I'd hope that they would be able to transfer their children's authority, the authority over their children from themselves to other people. Because while the children have blind spots in terms of what they're looking for, I think it's also true that parents don't see exactly clearly, or at least that there's pressures around them. I mean, you might ask the question, you know, we were talking earlier, well, you got to finish your college degree and you've got to get your life started. And it's like, well, where'd that pressure come from? That pressure probably came from the parents. And so the parents might have a blind spot. I know I've had, I've had occasion to working with young couples where is looking to get married, where they're facing that pressure to maybe to not get married yet, but, but oftentimes it's to not have children.

Because they've got other things that the parents see as more important. And so I would say that parents have to learn how to treat their children as adults, even though they're young adults. And even though the parents still have wisdom and perspective that the children don't have, they also have blind spots that are peculiar to them because they're the parents. And it would do them well to get out of the way at these sorts of points and let the church, the older women and the older godly men. Take an interest in their children and help shepherd them through this because this is a really important decision who you're going to marry I don't know that there's a more consequential decision that you'll make in your life Other than who you'll marry and so when you're dealing with a young couple dating interested in marriage What how are you dealing with them? What are you saying to them? Like what are your priorities? well I wanted to circle back around you said something about the parents obviously

The parents have to be involved. The father has to be involved. But something that can happen is that parents have regrets. You know, in their marriage, maybe their marriage is not as good, especially if they're not Christian people, and now they push their regrets to their children. They don't want their children making the same mistakes that they've made. Or we got married young and it ruined our life. Yeah, but actually what ends up happening is actually a lot of the mistakes they made God used in their life, and that's what made them godly and helpful. And they don't want to have the faith for their children to make those mistakes. And so they're trying to stop them from doing it. And in the process, they actually exasperate and make other mistakes that are even worse, like pushing their children to not get married and those things. Yeah, I think the thing that runs true for both parent and child is that they need involvement from the church in terms of counsel and guidance about these things. Yeah, so in marriage counseling then,

So the marriage counseling that I've done, I often think is kind of a waste at times. You mean premarital counseling? Yeah, premarital counseling. Not all marriage counseling. If you need marriage counseling, it's just a waste. No, I mean premarital counseling because they're already determined. When we're at that point, they're engaged. But part of what it is is to try to help them actually slow down and see. I'm glad you're getting married. I'm excited about that. Now let's talk about all the pitfalls. Let's talk about all the problems and the issues. And let's talk about all the places you're going to fight, really, is what I start talking about. I mean, that's all for me. The two things to accomplish in marriage counseling or the three things are how to fight for them to know that counseling in and of itself is not a bad thing so that they can get that win after they're married. So I'm establishing.

I'm establishing that pastoral relationship now so that when marriage comes, we can continue to do that. And then the third thing is just can we figure out how to do the wedding? But that's the lesser deal. Yeah, that's the smallest thing. But how to fight is what's so important, I think. So what I do is I typically have six sessions, a minimum of six sessions with the couple. And they're scheduled to be an hour and a half long. They sometimes run over an hour and a half, two hours. If we need more time, then we take more time. But in the first session, what we do is talk about conflict. Like you're saying, fighting in general. Here are sort of the ground rules of fighting. And then each week after that, we take the things that couples most commonly fight about. And then we talk about that for a whole week. For us, even before we get into premarital counseling, we have this questionnaire that's probably...

six or eight pages long that the, that each and each person is supposed to fill out individually without talking to their fiance about it, be honest. And they turn that into me and my wife or whoever's doing the counseling ahead of time. So we can know what's coming up. Have you hidden anything about your past? What is, you know, your parents' relationship, your sexual past, um, life changing of a big, like the stuff that's going to great affect the marriage. And they turn those things in. And then We read those things, and as we need to, we talk about the things that come up in there. But we talk about fighting about money, about children, about church involvement, about in-laws. Our last session is actually about sex. You do that the week before the wedding. You don't want to be talking about sex a month before the wedding. It's just not helpful to anybody. And part of that discussion for us is segregated. I talk to the man. My wife talks to the husband. But coming back to that initial talk,

we sort of give the ground rules for conflict. Like how should Christian couples fight? And everyone would like to say, well, they shouldn't. And it's like, well, seriously, come on. Like we're sinners. That's just not one of the options. So how should we fight? What rules would you be giving or sort of guardrails? I always talk about it in terms of guardrails. Like I'm going to lay down a rumble strip, not because it's going to prevent you from fighting, but just so that it rattles when you drive over it. So you go, oh no, we're doing that thing. What are those things that you would tell? Yeah, yeah. Actually, even in marriage counseling, Married couples print these and put them on their fridge. Because actually some of the problems in marriage is because there's not enough actual fights. Good fights. Good fights, yes. That was us. And you don't fight by the rules, then what actually happens is you're actually not fighting about the thing. You're actually fighting about the fight. That's usually what happens. So the rules I begin with, I think we said this earlier, is that

The divorce is not a word to be used. Threats are not a word to be used. The fighting is not meant to lead to you making threats and leaving and going home. That's the first rule that we always establish, that there's commitment here. You cannot actually have a good fight if it's always a determining the relationship fight. And that's true just not even in marriage. That's even in churches. Right. This may be getting off on a side roll, but I've been with church discussions where it's like you can just tell the person's deciding whether they're staying here or not. And now you can't even have a – you can't have a good – you can't resolve the conflict when that's the case. And so when every fight is a determined relationship fight, then that's – you're not going to have any good fights. So in marriage, first rule, the marriage is not on the table, which means the second rule really is that you need to fight about what the thing is and not about the fight. Now, sometimes you have to have a referee that can help you keep the rules and say, hey, we're actually off the conflict of off the thing that we should be fighting about. So you always have to have somebody to help you.

Come back to the thing itself that you're fighting about, that this is – we're going to fight about the issue. And so you need to talk about whatever the issue is, whether if it's money or any of the things. You need to be mindful that we're going to stay and talk on this. You've got a whole list of rules that you just pulled up there. I did. I actually just pulled up my outline. I know. I'm trying to – I have a Ten Commandments thing, but I was trying to do it from top to bottom. No, I want to put those on the show notes, by the way.

to make sure people, the rules that you all are talking about. No, we have to start a Patreon for that. They can't have this stuff. This is the top secret. We said it was top secret. So the two that I drew from what you were saying, Pastor Joseph, are commitment and honesty. Yep. Are the two, like you could include trust, trust, commitment, and honesty. Because if you think about it, how much growth happens, I know some growth happens during dating, but not a lot because there's not trust yet. In the sense that I don't know if this person is actually going to stick around or not. So how much am I going to share with them about my past? How much am I going to be open with them? How much am I going to be willing to adjust for them? Because we're just, we're trying this out. When you're married, that commitment lays a foundation for be willing to go, all right, we're in this forever till death do us part. So therefore, we got to figure out how to make it work now. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. And so we would spend the, if, if, and when I do premarital counseling, the whole first week is just talking about conflict in general. And I say all the same type of stuff he says, which is like, listen, everyone wants to, the best way to have a good marriage is to decide beforehand whether this is a good match. And if you won't do the work now, you're going to regret that you didn't do the work. for the rest of your life. It's very common for people after they get married to ask questions like, did I marry the right person? Should we have gotten married? What I say to them is, we need to ask that question before you get married, because you can do something about it before you get married. You cannot get married. But the relationship and the options available actually change once you get married. Where beforehand, I may say, you guys, I don't think you're a good man. You guys are going to fight. This is not

This is not a good pair, and you can back out of it. But if that exact same couple comes with those exact same problems once they're married, I can't say to them, well, I'm sorry, you're just not a good pair. I say, listen, you have hard work ahead of you, and your marriage and the quality of it and the longevity of it hangs in the balance. This is so important for you to do work. Where in a different context, I might have said, you guys really need to think about whether this is a good pairing. And so we spend a whole week talking about that.

It's on a lower level, obviously, but we have the same principle plays out when people are making purchases. When we went to buy our house, the inspector comes back and says, understand that you guys have had termite damage in this house. The crawl space has water in it and so forth. We went in making the purchase knowing the worst of it. And I've been grateful now because we ended up buying the house. And I think we bought a house that's been good for us and God was good. But some people buy the house without the inspection. And then you're like, oh my goodness. And then it's too late. Yeah. And it's like, sorry, you have a $40,000 project here. Yep. Yeah. And you're like, someone should have told us. And it's like, well, that's all as pastors. Our whole goal is to be helpful. Yeah. And anyone who's helpful is probably going to run afoul of your own perspectives and desires in their being helpful. So don't punish them for it. Right. And so...

Joseph and I were just comparing notes about what we say, like what the rules are. He's pulling it up on his phone. I'm pulling it up on my computer. And I don't know if we got it from the same place. I think we at some point. Well, I have the same thing that you pulled up on your laptop. I actually use this. OK, so you're using. Yeah, I've reworded them for this thing on my phone. OK, and this will be in our new. Podcast Patreon for all of you. For exclusive. For $10 or more a month. You come to me for $9 and I'll give it to you. But one of the things we say to people in premarital counseling is like, I always describe it as frost seeding. And nobody knows what frost seeding is because no one keeps farms or deals with that. I know what it is now because Pastor Dave told me.

Frost seeding is like you go out when there's still frost in the ground and you broadcast seed over the frozen ground. You're like, well, that seed's not going to grow. And you're like, it won't until the ground thaws, the rains come, and then the seed goes down and then it germinates. So what we're doing is going out before the problems arise, putting all the seeds out there so that when the problems arise. Hopefully these boundaries have taken root and are starting to grow. And I say, another thing I say to couples, because they really do, I don't know if this has been your experience, Joseph, when you're talking with a premarital couple and you're like, hey, here's going to be a thing you deal with. They look at you like you're crazy. They're like, no, we wouldn't do that. That wouldn't happen between us. And I find that I always say that before I give this first rule, I mean, this rules are not exhaustive. They're not, they don't address every situation, but these are general rules. And I always give that.

that qualification before I give the first rule, because the first rule I always give people is no hitting. And mine is no physical violence or destruction of property. Right. Like, like, so we talk about hitting, we talk about, uh, breaking stuff, slamming doors, throwing things. And you're like, that's Christian premarital counseling. And I'm like, uh-huh. Cause guess what? That's what they do. Like, it's like, you know, and that's true for men and women. Because the wife cannot hit her husband. Yeah, that makes me think of, I read a marriage book. It's a very famous marriage book. And he tells the story about how his wife was smashing dishes in the kitchen. And that was how she got his attention that he was wrong about something. And he tells it like this is like... Like that was a good thing. Yes. And I look back on that now and I'm like, no.

Something's really broken if we've gotten to that point. Well, some dishes were broken for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And some relational things. And so, yeah, the first rule is like, I mean, we'll spend time talking about the fact that you can't hit anybody or break anything. And the way I describe it to people is I say, listen, this is a bridge that burns behind you. If you ever hit your spouse or throw something or grab them and shake them or whatever, the initial. hurdle to get over and doing that the first time will not be there the second time. And you will set a trajectory that gets worse and worse and worse. That's what I mean by a bridge that burns behind you is you can't hit the reverse button. It's way harder to get back. And so you have to do everything you can not to get to that point in the conflict. And I'm saying this to people who have stars in their eyes and they're like, we love each other so much. Are you kidding me? And I'm like, no, I'm just telling you.

I've sat in enough marriage, like not pre-marriage counseling, but marriage counseling and heard what, and know what actually goes on. And I've been married for almost 20 years. You know, it's like we're sinners. And you've never sat there with somebody that was stubborn and won't just, if you could just squeeze them, they'll get the answer, right? You'll just, just shake them. They'll finally come along and no, that's not how it works. But yeah. Yeah, and so that's the first rule, no hitting. Okay, first rule. What's the second rule? Second rule, what I call is no 100% words. Which is, for me, the D word is forbidden. Yeah, so always, never, those types of things. Like you're just not, you always do this, you never do that. It's just like, dude, you're pouring gas on a fire. Like the fire's already started, you're already having a conflict. When you say always and never, all you're doing is intensifying that fight. This is not helpful. Well, what you're doing then is you're actually keeping long records of wrongs. Yeah.

And so when you're saying they always do that, I've got track. I've got the receipts for this. Yeah. And it's also worth noting, it's not true. In fact, it's never true. Yeah. It's not true that they always do this or they never do that. Like they may struggle with it, but it's not a charitable way to fight. And maybe it sounds crazy to say, but in your fights, you should be aiming to be charitable. We all fail at it. Like we're not good at being charitable when we're upset. But if you read the book of Proverbs and it talks about how to handle conflict, like holding your tongue, being gracious, listening before you speak, concealing a matter is always commended. And the fool is always the guy who's popping off at the mouth and saying things that are unhelpful. And so always, you know, 100% words, always and never are the things that...

are just going to get you where you're fighting about the fight instead of about the issue, like Joseph mentioned earlier. So you have to avoid them. That's the rumble strip we put down. If you say you always like, you should catch, like, I want something in your head to, I want the light to go off. And for you to say, Oh no, I said the thing. And I want your spouse. Like it's a, it's a reality check for both people. I've had people come back after getting married and they're like, it was so helpful because we both, it was like a snap back to reality. They both went, you just did the thing we're not supposed to do. We're never supposed to do that. That's right. And, I mean, that was, it was helpful to them is what they said. That's rule number two. What's, and Pastor Dave said, or I'm sorry, Pastor Spurgeon said, it's never say the D word. Yes. And never threaten divorce or say you hate them. No, no. Yeah. Do you have this takeaway words where you can't get back? I've got that down as no irretrievable words. Okay. Like divorce. I hate you. I wish I'd married you. Yeah. Stuff like that. Like, like I've disappointed.

disciplined men are told them or wives for leaving an argument, just walking away, sometimes leaving the house. Yeah. The one time where I'd say like, you need to get away from it is when you're at the point of saying this kind of stuff. Right. If you're at the point, if you're at the point where you're about to break something, something, hair hit somebody, or you're about to say, I wish I'd never married you or I hate you. This is time where you need to get some space. Yeah. Not, not permanently. Not like I'm leaving for the night or whatever, but like, This is a hard time out. I got to get away from this because I'm about to lose something and say something that I can't get back. And while there's forgiveness and while there's even understanding on both parts where we felt that way, you don't want to be in the habit of saying this kind of stuff. And so I've got it down as no irretrievable words. You can't get it back. And so it's better not to say it.

Are we on the fourth? Is that the fourth commandment there? Well, for me, this is my third commandment. It says – this is similar to that. I don't know if you have this. Mine says no insults, especially using their family against them, a.k.a. you're just like your mom. Oh, yeah. Because maybe they don't like their mom, and now you just put them in the weird spot of having to defend their mom from something that they do not want to be like their mom about. And so you've just brought in – You've just ruined it. Yeah, we were definitely working from the same script because I've got no negative comparisons. You're just like this. You could do a double whammy. You could say, you know, you always act just like your mother. Or it's like you break two rules at once.